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 Post subject: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:11 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
right now my Raptor Tallon has the absorption capabilities of a urethane ball. I tried extracting oil but none came out. I tried scuffing the ball at 220 grit and it still will not absorb. I could use some help


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Posts: 22
Sounds like you may have to take in the pro shop and get an oil extraction done to it. That will help suck out the oil that's in the pores of the ball. Did you try using a deep cleaner to see if some of the oil will come off? Usually Ebonite's Clean 'n Dull will help get some of the deep oil off the ball. They also have the Adrenaline wipes, it stinks a ton but once I tried it on one of my balls a few times, it definitely brought back a lot of the ball reaction I lost on it.

_________________
Yorktown, IN
PAP: 4.5 inches; Ball Speed: 15-16 mph; Rotation: medium (250-300)
My arsenal: Raptor, 505T, Venom Strike, Tribal, Recon Pearl


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:31 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:07 am
Posts: 4
This topic is spoken about at length in the topics page on the top of the forum.. This is a copy of the original post


Here is a great experience from this past week that I think would be beneficial to share with the community, and help people understand what is happening and what it takes to fix it when their ball stops hooking.

There was a shop that drilled 4 Raptors for customers over the span of a month, they all rolled fantastic out of the box for the first 4 or 5 sets. The customers then had them cleaned in the shop after league because the house habitually deposits stubborn belt marks on the balls. They all stopped hooking, and I got a phone call from a gentleman who I have dealt with in the past, including recommending the Raptor. At first I only knew about and addressed the one that belonged to him. He mentioned that they cleaned the ball with a certain cleaner and it seemed to shine up a bit. I suggested cutting with 500/4k because the surface was visually changed, and that sounded suspect. That procedure helped but did not restore the reaction as it was out of the box. I suggested a heavy 360 cut, then 500/4k. This worked. He also mentioned on the last phone exchange that there were 3 other Raptors that exhibited the same symptoms and all were restored with a cut with 360, then up to 500/4k. In all cases this restored their original reaction.

Obligatory Tecnobabble:

Modern coverstocks have had to find a way to create friction without exceeding the USBC Ra specification. In order to do this molecular texture additives and formulas, I have referred to them as "eccentric polymers", are being employed somewhat industry-wide to increase total friction at equivalent Ra. The base formulas and additive packages are all different from the various manufacturers based on their suppliers and R&D, and some manufacturers are not using these technologies yet. What this means is that it isn't as much about the size of the peaks and peaks and valleys as this is hard limited by the USBC Ra spec(and often will be the same from ball to ball based on the grit used to prepare the surface), but the actual microscopic molecular grit and porosity on the surfaces of those peaks and valleys. I have mentioned this as chemical landscape in the past and it is quite a bit more complex than simply texture. I'm not a chemical engineer so I unfortunately don't understand the nuances at play, but it is cool stuff.

Here is the rub:

As this texture becomes smaller, it becomes more fragile. Some ball cleaners because of their ingredients will either smooth this molecular texture because of a strong solvent/chemical in the cleaner, or plug/fill in the pore structure and texture with some solid remnant deposited on the surface after cleaning. This phenomena can be observed in all micro-texture coverstocks, not just with Motiv balls. Notice you most often hear about this issue with high end hooking balls. This is because the loss of reaction is most noticeable on the conditions intended and expectations are often high.

I must also address Oil absorption, as it is a major factor in loss of reaction and often the first troubleshooting avenue attempted. You must differentiate loss of absorption capacity, with loss of absorption capability. If a ball is saturated, in extreme cases it will remain visible on the surface at all times, it can not effectively absorb any more oil and therefore has lost absorption capacity. To restore capacity, you extract oil to make room for more with your preferred method of extraction. Loss of absorption capability is completely different. Plug the pores or melt the coverstock sealing up the pores is not good, this will reduce the absorption capability. Covers create friction primarily by texture and absorption rate, if you take away one of those factors the reaction becomes dependent on the other, and is reduced. This is why proper surface maintenance is key. The Raptor cover is a lower absorption rate formula. This results in the reaction lasting a long time but it can sometimes be a bit more sensitive to texture loss in higher volumes of oil. There is no free lunch.


What can I do about it?

1. Clean your ball after every set. I personally use and recommend Power Gel Clean because it does not leave a solid residue, and is sensitive to molecular texture. I don't know how they made such a safe but also effective cleaner, but the stuff works wonders. Cleaning addresses texture, absorption capacity, and absorption capability retention.

2. Restore the surface. This doesn't have to happen every day, but use will break down the micro texture and impede pore structure with various substances encountered while bowling. There is no set timeline for this one because it depends on what surface you are using. Often higher grits require less restoration. This is the occasional scuff with a pad by hand.

3. Aggressive cut to restore texture once reaction has been reduced. Once the surface gets broken down and reaction is significantly reduced and not being restored by a quick scuff, a 320 wet/dry or 360 Abralon pad will be required to expose new, fresh, textured, oil hungry cover.




Invariably as technology becomes more complex so does the required care and maintenance. Look at cars, cell phones, and computers. Hopefully this article as helped you understand a little bit more about what is happening, why it is happening, and how to prolong the reaction of your high performance bowling ball. More importantly, you are now better equipped to properly diagnose and treat reaction issues.


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:07 am
Posts: 4
This was discussed at length in the topic of lost my ball reactions here is the first post


Here is a great experience from this past week that I think would be beneficial to share with the community, and help people understand what is happening and what it takes to fix it when their ball stops hooking.

There was a shop that drilled 4 Raptors for customers over the span of a month, they all rolled fantastic out of the box for the first 4 or 5 sets. The customers then had them cleaned in the shop after league because the house habitually deposits stubborn belt marks on the balls. They all stopped hooking, and I got a phone call from a gentleman who I have dealt with in the past, including recommending the Raptor. At first I only knew about and addressed the one that belonged to him. He mentioned that they cleaned the ball with a certain cleaner and it seemed to shine up a bit. I suggested cutting with 500/4k because the surface was visually changed, and that sounded suspect. That procedure helped but did not restore the reaction as it was out of the box. I suggested a heavy 360 cut, then 500/4k. This worked. He also mentioned on the last phone exchange that there were 3 other Raptors that exhibited the same symptoms and all were restored with a cut with 360, then up to 500/4k. In all cases this restored their original reaction.

Obligatory Tecnobabble:

Modern coverstocks have had to find a way to create friction without exceeding the USBC Ra specification. In order to do this molecular texture additives and formulas, I have referred to them as "eccentric polymers", are being employed somewhat industry-wide to increase total friction at equivalent Ra. The base formulas and additive packages are all different from the various manufacturers based on their suppliers and R&D, and some manufacturers are not using these technologies yet. What this means is that it isn't as much about the size of the peaks and peaks and valleys as this is hard limited by the USBC Ra spec(and often will be the same from ball to ball based on the grit used to prepare the surface), but the actual microscopic molecular grit and porosity on the surfaces of those peaks and valleys. I have mentioned this as chemical landscape in the past and it is quite a bit more complex than simply texture. I'm not a chemical engineer so I unfortunately don't understand the nuances at play, but it is cool stuff.

Here is the rub:

As this texture becomes smaller, it becomes more fragile. Some ball cleaners because of their ingredients will either smooth this molecular texture because of a strong solvent/chemical in the cleaner, or plug/fill in the pore structure and texture with some solid remnant deposited on the surface after cleaning. This phenomena can be observed in all micro-texture coverstocks, not just with Motiv balls. Notice you most often hear about this issue with high end hooking balls. This is because the loss of reaction is most noticeable on the conditions intended and expectations are often high.

I must also address Oil absorption, as it is a major factor in loss of reaction and often the first troubleshooting avenue attempted. You must differentiate loss of absorption capacity, with loss of absorption capability. If a ball is saturated, in extreme cases it will remain visible on the surface at all times, it can not effectively absorb any more oil and therefore has lost absorption capacity. To restore capacity, you extract oil to make room for more with your preferred method of extraction. Loss of absorption capability is completely different. Plug the pores or melt the coverstock sealing up the pores is not good, this will reduce the absorption capability. Covers create friction primarily by texture and absorption rate, if you take away one of those factors the reaction becomes dependent on the other, and is reduced. This is why proper surface maintenance is key. The Raptor cover is a lower absorption rate formula. This results in the reaction lasting a long time but it can sometimes be a bit more sensitive to texture loss in higher volumes of oil. There is no free lunch.


What can I do about it?

1. Clean your ball after every set. I personally use and recommend Power Gel Clean because it does not leave a solid residue, and is sensitive to molecular texture. I don't know how they made such a safe but also effective cleaner, but the stuff works wonders. Cleaning addresses texture, absorption capacity, and absorption capability retention.

2. Restore the surface. This doesn't have to happen every day, but use will break down the micro texture and impede pore structure with various substances encountered while bowling. There is no set timeline for this one because it depends on what surface you are using. Often higher grits require less restoration. This is the occasional scuff with a pad by hand.

3. Aggressive cut to restore texture once reaction has been reduced. Once the surface gets broken down and reaction is significantly reduced and not being restored by a quick scuff, a 320 wet/dry or 360 Abralon pad will be required to expose new, fresh, textured, oil hungry cover.




Invariably as technology becomes more complex so does the required care and maintenance. Look at cars, cell phones, and computers. Hopefully this article as helped you understand a little bit more about what is happening, why it is happening, and how to prolong the reaction of your high performance bowling ball. More importantly, you are now better equipped to properly diagnose and treat reaction issues.


Last edited by JustinWi on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:32 am 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
I don't think anyone is getting what I am saying. I have tried sanding down to 360, 220, and even 180 grit to expose new coverstock. The cover will not absorbe the lane oil it just sits on the ball just like a plastic or a urethane ball. I can't extract any oil out of the ball either. The ball was designed for use on heavy oil so I can't get why none of these steps are working to fix this problem


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Is it still hooking?


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:27 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
It hooks if there is enough friction. Right now the ball has a similar roll as a urethane ball ie. the Tank. the layout is 60x3.5x40


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:06 pm
Posts: 10
Sounds like the conditions are less than ideal for talon. It needs oil to hook. Otherwise its going to burn all the energy and look like crap going down the lane.


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 Post subject: Re: I need help restoring my Raptor Tallon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:58 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
I have thrown the Tallon on multiple conditions along with other balls. The lane conditions are not the problem. The problem is with the coverstock on this particular Tallon. I read and tried the methods of restoring the coverstock found in http://www.motivbowling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15174 nothing is working


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