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 Post subject: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:02 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Newton, MA
just got my hands on a tz3. its has a 3.5" pin. i am looking for snappy reaction out of this ball. good length with an agreesive move on the back end to us on med oil or short sport shots or when mids burn up i suppose. my stats are
16mph of hand
260-270 revs
13-15 tilt
60-70 rotation

i was looking to layout this ball out some near 65 x 3 3/8 x 25
any comments on this or other layout suggestions?

thanks

michael


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
The diff on the TZ3 is extremely high, be careful leveraging it like that. Keep the angles but possibly a 4.5" or 5" pin.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Massillon, OH
Justin the layout you gave me is long and has a stong move. 70x5.5x30

check out the vid Michael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpQaOW0esXI

Good luck

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RX1s 60x6x70
QZ2 1 inch pin to pap
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Primal Impulse 90x3.5x55
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Sigma Tour 80x5.5x40
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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
Seeing how you have a bit more hand than Maloney, you are a bit more speed/rev balanced. Tweaking the angles and pin into a stronger position compensates for his speed dominance, resulting in a similar reaction.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:01 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:02 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Newton, MA
JustinWi wrote:
Seeing how you have a bit more hand than Maloney, you are a bit more speed/rev balanced. Tweaking the angles and pin into a stronger position compensates for his speed dominance, resulting in a similar reaction.

so i should stay with the 65 x 4ish x 25? 4" pin or should i change the angle to val to to 35-40ish
what do you suggest justin? thanks again guys for your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:38 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
You are looking for a long and strong reaction, so keeping the drilling angle high, and the VAL angle low gets you there.

The pin distance controls the amount of flare. The only other factor that has an impact on this is the weight hole. The proper choice of pin distance is primarily based on rev/speed ratio, with added consideration of how far down the lane you wish the ball to change direction.

The drilling angle controls how quickly the ball begins to "dispense" the energy it has gained from your release.

VAL angle controls how fast the ball changes direction when it sees friction.


The one sticky point in your requested reaction is "when the mids burn up". A ball that is drilled to react strongly to friction will do so. When you encounter early friction, a ball drilled to explosively release energy will often not carry.

Keep this in mind, we impart revolutions on the ball in order to charge the block with rotational energy. This rotational energy is converted to directional energy by friction between the lane and cover stock. There is a finite amount of energy given to the ball at release. The whole science and art of ball drilling is basically energy management.


In summary, a TZ3 drilled 70x25@4.75" will give you a ball that is strong off the spot, but will clear a bit of early friction.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:02 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Newton, MA
excellent info. thanks a ton for you dispensing knowledge.
so smaller val the more enegry it stores and the larger drill angle make the backend bigger reacting faster.
one last question is with the 70 x 25 the pin further away decreases track flare and closer reduces it?

also what would you recommend out of curiosity for a stronger layout let say for 35 to 37ft patterns ? 45x4x45?

with this OOB surface at 4000 polish i am a little afraid of the ball going to long? thansk guys again.

i like the idea of the 70 x 4.75 x 25. sounds good. just curious if how would the reaction change with a shorter pin, 4" maybe? thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
mmaloney23 wrote:
so smaller val the more energy it stores and the larger drill angle make the back end bigger reacting faster.


Close. Smaller VAL angle=faster response to friction. Friction in this case is the trigger mechanism for the transfer of rotational energy to directional energy. The VAL angle determines how fast this happens. The drilling angle basically controls how long energy is conserved. Larger drilling angle=longer conservation. A larger drilling angle can push a ball a bit deeper into friction by delaying the release of its energy.


These are some rough generalizations, keep in mind variations will and do occur:

Large drilling angle and small VAL angle = Long and Angular.

Small drilling angle and large VAL angle = Earlier and Arc.

Large drilling angle and large VAL angle = Long and Arc.

Small drilling angle and small VAL angle = Early and Angular.


mmaloney23 wrote:
one last question is with the 70 x 25 the pin further away decreases track flare and closer reduces it?


The strongest layout you can put on a ball is the double thumb. You have a ball or 2 drilled with this layout I believe. Traditional theory had assumed that maximum track flare is obtained with a pin placed at 3 3/8". That is true, until you place a weight hole. So there are 2 sets of guidelines.

No Hole:
3 3/8" results in maximum flare, while flare diminishes as you go closer to, and farther from, the PAP. This isn't set in stone, because core designs vary and you can move mass around in odd ways sometimes when driling, but is a good general approach.

Hole:
4" pin with a P3 hole(double thumb layout) results in max flare. From there, you can combine the hole placement and pin placement to create varying after-drilling intermediate differentials. For example, a 4.5" pin and P3 hole(+20% intermediate) will generally have a higher final differential than a 3 3/8" pin and P1(-20% intermediate) hole.


mmaloney23 wrote:
also what would you recommend out of curiosity for a stronger layout let say for 35 to 37ft patterns ? 45x4x45?


Depends on if you are looking for control or finish. 80x20@4.25" P2 for finish, 40x75@4" P3 for control.

mmaloney23 wrote:
with this OOB surface at 4000 polish i am a little afraid of the ball going to long? thansk guys again.


That is the nice thing about surface, it is infinitely and easily adjustable. Match the drilling to the bowler, and the surface to the condition.

mmaloney23 wrote:
i like the idea of the 70 x 4.75 x 25. sounds good. just curious if how would the reaction change with a shorter pin, 4" maybe?


You would end up with a higher drilled intermediate diff, creating more flare, resulting in an earlier and smoother reaction. It may hook the same or possibly more overall, and the break point would be approximately 1.5-2.5 feet closer to the foul line. This is assuming the same hole placement, or no hole. If you did the 4" pin with a P1 hole, and the 4.75 with a P3 hole, you may end up close to the same final numbers and resulting reaction. This game has many variables.

mmaloney23 wrote:
thanks


Welcome, as always.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:05 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:02 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Newton, MA
Welcome, as always.[/quote]

one thing i forgot to mention is this effects things at all, the ball has a 3.5"pin with 2.9 top weight. someone somewhere got more technical and went as far as recommending 1/2 of positive weight. with a 2.9oz top weight should i get it drilled any diff or certain hole a touch deeper? thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Got a TZ3, now need help with layout
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:12 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
Statics in general have a very small, practically negligible, impact on the resulting reaction with today's bowling balls. Often having the initial specs in a certain configuration promote your end goal. Like how short pins and high tops aren't prudent for high pin placements with low holes.


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