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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:16 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
Hey Mike, if u can, and/or dont mind; will u post a close up pic of any symmetrical balls that you own that have a drilled p4 hole?

I'm still relatively young to the sport, and even more so to ball layouts and dynamics, however since joining the nation & talking with such greats in our sport like justin, i feel like i am getting a much better knowledge og the whole science. I however am still struggling understanding how and where to place the gradient line on symmetrical drills. I think for my sake & having no access to a determinator, Justin told me that the psa will be about an inch below thumbhole. But upon reading different theories by Mo, himself, on Bowlingchat, its my understanding that although he has said the psa after drilling a symmetric ball will indeed be in or below the thumb, the psa will always shift closer to the weighthole once placed.
In theory, he says to therefore place the gradient line p4 location 6 3/4" from the pin intersecting about 1/2" right of the midline of a rh grip. WOW.... just trying to word that has gotten me all confused again.
Justin help me buddy....
Mike any p4 pics would be great. Like a pic of your qz1

Thanks a million


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:28 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:09 pm
Posts: 27
drilled one up last night,ball had 3.0 top and a 2.3" pin.went with a 60*x4-3/4"x20* no wt. hole.
rolled it on Bruns. synthetics,broken down shot with somewhat spotty backends. very clean in the heads,not squirty at all and made a very smooth transition down lane that was very easy to read. it looks like the 20* val angle is going to be perfect for me as the silver held pocket easily and carried very good.I would say it's a good 10 boards less the my QZ2 with a 70x2.5x40 but still has that smooth roll and finish to it.
I had a great look with my QZ2 so the lanes were not as dry as I see in league but both balls look like they will work great in my line up.
Thanks Motiv Nation!


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
If you have a Determinator, spin the ball to locate the exact PSA.

From first working with the gradient line in its early stages, I had used a spot below the thumb as a general guide on symmetrical balls when no determinator was present.

Actually spinning the ball to locate the PSA is always the preferred method.

P.S. Mo is the ultimate authority on this stuff. I try to keep up as best I can but sometimes I get a week or 2 behind.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:45 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
So justin, does this mean you bit the bullet & bought yourself one? If so, were you able to conclude the psa moving down below the drilled thumb? And then to even further that question, have you found truth to the psa moving from underneath the drilled thumb, closer to the x hole after it has been added and spun?

Justin, out of curiousity if the psa almost always ends up in or below the thumbhole when no weight hole is drilled, whats the point of utilizing different drilling angles? It seems like no matter what angle you lay out it will always decrease after being drilled?
Justin, enlighten me sir master.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:17 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
strimmed wrote:
So justin, does this mean you bit the bullet & bought yourself one?


No, but it is on my Christmas list. As well as a profilometer.

strimmed wrote:
And then to even further that question, have you found truth to the psa moving from underneath the drilled thumb, closer to the x hole after it has been added and spun?


The more significant variable of influence is the differential adjustment afforded by the hole placement. I unfortunately have not personally performed any experiments to determine what the PSA does after the placement of a hole, but I trust that Mo's analysis is accurate.

strimmed wrote:
Justin, out of curiousity if the psa almost always ends up in or below the thumbhole when no weight hole is drilled, whats the point of utilizing different drilling angles? It seems like no matter what angle you lay out it will always decrease after being drilled?


The main purpose of a drilling angle in my findings is to control weight in order to facilitate the placement of a hole to retain static legality.

Generally I'll start with one of these options:
40 for a pretty large hole.
60 for a medium or small hole.
75 for no hole.

I'll chose out of box pin length based on what position I want to use. Most frequently I'll make use of a 3" or 4" pin.

After drawing lines I can weigh and potentially tweak.



strimmed wrote:
Justin, enlighten me sir master.


I have a looooong way to go before I earn that title my friend, but thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:25 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
Justin dont be so modest. You know as well as all of us, that w/o you here the motivnation wouldnt nearly be what it is today... and for that we all owe you a big thanks in my eyes.

Back to the topic... that i pretty much hijacked, lol, sorry. Anyways ive got a new silver coming soon, and even though i've never thrown a recon myself, i have still decided to double thumb it, mostly due to the fact that i would have to consider myself a stroker, inching up on my revs tho, that im almost a tweener id guess. Justin do you have any pics of how i'm supposed to layout a dbl thumb on a symmetrical cored ball? I was hoping Mike wouldve saw my request earlier to get an idea since his sig lists a qz1 rico w/ a p4 hole, which i guess i would just place the hole a little bit higher towards my .pap for a dbl thumb... does the double thumb (symmetrical) layout still require a 4" pin to pap x 30* val angle? Or is it less imperative, meaning as long as i put a hole to the right of the thumb, it is automatically then considered a double thumb drilling?
Btw, any help would be great, but pictures or at least drawings will most definately seal the deal.

Thanks,
Sean


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:58 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 18
Placing a hole close to the thumb does not create a double thumb layout. Here is a link explaining the layout. It has pictures showing the process.

http://www.morichbowling.com/Drilling/D ... illing.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:43 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
cvette04 wrote:
Placing a hole close to the thumb does not create a double thumb layout. Here is a link explaining the layout. It has pictures showing the process.

http://www.morichbowling.com/Drilling/D ... illing.htm


Thank you for the link, but what im referring to is how its done on a symmetrical ball? Typical answer would be to follow that links discription, by using the assumed MB by marking it on a line drawn 6 3/4" from thd pin thru the cg. However, what Justin & i are talking about is how the assumed MB is never gonna be the real psa after the symmetrical core becomes assymetrical thru drilling holes. Does that make sense know?


Any pics on a sym dble thumb layout would be greatly appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:57 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Rochester NY
Traditionally, a double thumb drilling is used in Asymmetrical balls to max out the ball dynamics. Since they have a predefined PSA, the changes to the mass properties will be a bit more predictable.

For a symmetric, the drilling angle and pin distance are the most significant factors in the layout. What we know about symmetrical balls:

The highest flaring pin position is 3 3/8".
After drilling, the PSA ends up in the vicinity of the thumb.
30* VAL angle creates a very fast transition.

What I would conclude from this is as follows:
(Please keep in mind it is my conclusion and subject to correction.)

For a symmetrical use a 4" out of the box pin length, a 50* drilling angle to ensure some side to accommodate the hole, a 3 3/8" pin position, and a 30* VAL angle. 50x30@3 3/8".

Place as large of a hole as you can 1/2" away from the right edge of the thumb or slug pitched an inch further right than your thumb.

In my mind, that would max out the drilled specs of a symmetrical ball.

I have an email in to Mo regarding this, and will update with his conclusions.


Edit: I was incorrect, and received this proper explanation from Mo:

The reason we use 4" pin to PAP distance and 30* VAL angle is that the bowler's PAP moves significantly towards the center of the grip with this layout because of the increased diffs. For example, Jack Jurek's PAP goes from 4 7/8" x 5/8" up to 4 1/8" x 7/8" up when he drills a "double thumb" layout sym. or asym.


Last edited by JustinWi on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silver RX1 Layout???
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:22 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 18
I am new to drilling Motiv equipment. I generally use Storm and Hammer. I just got in a GT1 and SR2. I will be drilling them in the next two days.

I do not know how the Motiv line reacts to the movement of the PSA after drilling. However their is a good video on the Storm site showing four balls that have been drilled (The Second Dimension Part2). They were spun on the a deterrminator after drilling to get the PSA. Two of the came out just above the thumb. The other two were much different. I think it is an interesting video.

The implied MB of a symmetrical ball as you know is 6 3/4 on a line from the pin through the cg. Has anyone spun the Motiv equipment to see if this is correct on an undrilled ball? Does core shape have any effect on PSA location?


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