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 Post subject: Justin - please help with ball choice / layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:13 pm
Posts: 3
Justin - haven't seen you around in a while; still in Rochester?

Anyway, I could use a suggestion on a ball and layout for longer, heavier volume sport-type conditions. I suffer from either starting too early with nothing left for the pins, or not getting to the hole. You've been the only local guy who's given me consistently good information in the past, so maybe you can help.

Stats:

PAP 5 3/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed 17 off the hand
Revs 275-300 (slightly speed dominant?)
Axis tilt 10 degrees
Axis rotation 20 degrees

I realize my low tilt / rotation is a problem, but when I go to my "B" release to increase it, I lose tons of accuracy. I'm thinking a fairly large drill angle and longer pin to pap (symmetrical) to retain what little tilt / rotation I have (?) Yes / No?

Thanks in advance,
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: Justin - please help with ball choice / layout
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:06 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
Definately wait for justin on this but as im a shop operator now myself i always am looking to better my skills and no ones better and more accurate than Justin himself whom if im not mistaken was a long time pupil (for lack of a better word) of Mr. Pinel, so that obviously goes to show his knowledge is indeed untouchable....

But im thinking for longer heavy sport patterns why not go with a strong asym like the 2cruel or actually i bet a P7 if you could still get one would be best....

For assymetrics im thinking this
55x2.25"x30 p2 long and strong
40x3"x45 p3 for midlane and continuation

Symmetrics cant go wrong with the Scream or Rage right...
50x5.5"x25 p2.5 long and strong
35x5.25"x60 p3 hole 2-2.5" down VAL for midlane and continuation

Justin let me know how im doing with my though process...

Sean from bowl o rama, CT


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 Post subject: Re: Justin - please help with ball choice / layout
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:13 pm
Posts: 3
Sean,

Thank you for taking the time to give me your recommendations.

in my quest to understand the nuances of the dual angle system I have a follow-up question if you don't mind.

I completely understand the pin-pap distances you suggest (shorter distances in Asym's and longer in Sym's help to retain tilt / rotation, correct?). What I can't get my head around are the ratio's for the midlane / continuation scenario's. I thought higher ratio's retain tilt and lower burn it off. Us tilt-challenged types want to retain it, don't we?

Oh, and one last thing. I should have been more specific regarding fine tuning my request to lane conditions. Of the (4) layouts you were kind enough to suggest, which match up to the following conditions:
A - fresh house shot
B - broken down house shot
C - fresh sport (ex: dead man's curve)
D - broken down sport

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my first post. It's frustrating to bowl really well and not know why everything's working, and even worse when bowling terrible and not knowing why nothing's working.

Regards,
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: Justin - please help with ball choice / layout
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:24 pm
Posts: 64
SpeedNoTilt wrote:
Sean,

Thank you for taking the time to give me your recommendations.

in my quest to understand the nuances of the dual angle system I have a follow-up question if you don't mind.

I completely understand the pin-pap distances you suggest (shorter distances in Asym's and longer in Sym's help to retain tilt / rotation, correct?). What I can't get my head around are the ratio's for the midlane / continuation scenario's. I thought higher ratio's retain tilt and lower burn it off. Us tilt-challenged types want to retain it, don't we?

Oh, and one last thing. I should have been more specific regarding fine tuning my request to lane conditions. Of the (4) layouts you were kind enough to suggest, which match up to the following conditions:
A - fresh house shot
B - broken down house shot
C - fresh sport (ex: dead man's curve)
D - broken down sport

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my first post. It's frustrating to bowl really well and not know why everything's working, and even worse when bowling terrible and not knowing why nothing's working.

Regards,
Chuck



Hi chuck, youre very welcome sorry i am just reading this now.... Anyways to better answer your questions, id like to know what ball or balls u are looking at thus far.... If you want to tackle all 4 of those conditions with one ball, its gonna be hard, doable but hard. My best advise to you would be to get one symmetrical mainly for both house shots you listed and a strong assymetric for the sport shot.

Again, im no Justin Wi, so please dont take this as solid advise im just trying to do this to help better myself as well....

For fresh house shot id go with the rage
35x5.25"x60 p3 hole 2-2.5" down VAL for midlane and continuation

For broken down house if your good with adjusting you should be okay with this ball here as well

However since u wanted a layout for all 4 conditions, on the broken down id go with a pin up rage to help get the ball through the burnt heads... Something like this
50x5.5"x25 p2.5

For fresh sport shot (im not familiar with the length or units on dead mans curve but im assuming its long and flat) id go with a strong asymetric like the 2cruel or original raptor p7 if u can find one still
40x3"x45 p3-p3.5 with alot of surface to help produce a little burn spot and area.
Yes its gonna burn tilt and rotation a little quicker than a higher ratio layout but i feel like you wont have to worry about flagging the head pin as much or giving up the 3pin

And lastly for burnt up sport, use a raptor attack or 2cruel for a little more natural length, and use the long and strong asym layout i gave you.
55/60x2.25"x30 p2 only if needed. This should help provide more skid through the heads and you will be able to get the ball easily enough to the burn spot you already created, while preventing tilt and rotation from burning up before the last transition.

Just my take on this.... Again id appreciate to hear from the real vets here to see what may be right or wrong with my thought process.

Thanks
Sean


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 Post subject: Re: Justin - please help with ball choice / layout
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:13 pm
Posts: 3
Sean,

It's been a while since you gave me your suggestions regarding ball selection and layouts. I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for my success this past weekend at nationals.

I had a strong asymmetrical punched up 40 X 3 X 45 w/ a P3 hole as you suggested and it really worked for me in Reno (1900 all events, which considering how poorly I did last year made me very happy).

In my earlier post I commented that I was worried about burning what little tilt I have with the low 40 X 45 ratio. That was never an issue as the ball had plenty of bang at the pocket.

I don't know if you are still active on the forum, but if so, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and help me to a pretty nice payday (senior brackets were very kind to me).

Chuck


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