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 Post subject: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:16 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
I am trying to find a good layout for my Cruel LE. I would like somthing that would work well on 40-42 ft sport shots with hi volume of oil and not alot of fricton. My stats are 17 mph ball speed, about 300 rpm, low tilt about 10°, average rotation between 30°-60°.
I have been learning on how to apply the dual angle method and understand most of it. I came up with 50x2x50. But since this is the first time I attempted to generate my own layout i would like some feedback from people who have more experience with this sort of thing


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:37 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:01 pm
Posts: 526
I think the 2" pin-2-pap may be alittle short. Just drilled on for a high caliber female bowler, 60x4.5x40 & it seems to work very well, although she has not thrown it on heavy oil yet. I think 50* on the VAL angle may be alittle much also. Try 60x4x35. Tweek coverstock as needed & P3 hole for more mid-lane reaction or P1.5 hole for alittle more delayed reaction w/shad more 'pop' on b/e. Best of luck & welcome to Motiv-nation.

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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:39 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
I chose 50x50 because I thought lowering the ratio would adjust for the higher volume of oil. The 4" pin to pap does make more sens. I am curious though as to how my stats compare to that female bowler you mentioned since the layouts are very simular.

I welcome opinions from anyone else willing to share also


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:14 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 3:59 pm
Posts: 7
if you are playing long oil you need to use a pin under layout to get the ball started early try the pin under layout motiv recomends on their drill sheet the 5x5x4.5 and then take the cover down to 1000


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
chrisc47 wrote:
if you are playing long oil you need to use a pin under layout to get the ball started early


Pin down starting a ball early is a misnomer. A pin down layout is actually a larger VAL angle, which creates a slower second transition. The drilling angle and surface are the primary determinant of the timing and length of the first transition.

This concept stems from the fact that placing a pin above the ring finger will result in an approximately .75-1" longer pin to PAP distance than under the ring. The closer pin to PAP is what creates the earlier read. A pin above the ring and under the middle finger are generally more equivalent pin to PAP distances.





TOP5 wrote:
I came up with 50x2x50.


With the LE you are dealing with a ball that has a ton of innate differential and intermediate diff. Because of your Desire to use it on oil, and the fact you are rev/speed balanced, the 50* drilling angle is acceptable, 55* preferred. I would not with a Cruel go less than 50* however.

The 2" pin will create issues for you. The reduction in flare isn't the primary issue, the retention of axis rotation on heavier patterns will be. On oil, you need a ball that will transition properly to carry. A range of 4-4.75" would be ideal.

The VAL angle of 50* is good, a range of 40-50* would be optimal.

Most important here will be surface. Throw it out of the box to see what it does, but don't be afraid of 1k or even 500 if you encounter the volume.


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:21 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
JustinWi wrote:
With the LE you are dealing with a ball that has a ton of innate differential and intermediate diff. Because of your Desire to use it on oil, and the fact you are rev/speed balanced, the 50* drilling angle is acceptable, 55* preferred. I would not with a Cruel go less than 50* however.

The 2" pin will create issues for you. The reduction in flare isn't the primary issue, the retention of axis rotation on heavier patterns will be. On oil, you need a ball that will transition properly to carry. A range of 4-4.75" would be ideal.

The VAL angle of 50* is good, a range of 40-50* would be optimal.

Most important here will be surface. Throw it out of the box to see what it does, but don't be afraid of 1k or even 500 if you encounter the volume.


Thanks for that good explanation. Seems I was off on pin distance but glad to see my other measurements were close. I plan on drilling it up soon and I will post the results


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
No problem, any time.


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:57 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
Here is a follow up on my Cruel LE. I got drilled up 50x 4.75 x 40 with a small P2 hole. The ball is smooth gowing down but it has a hard time retaining tilt and I leave lots of single pins. I believe I went to low on the first angle and to long on the pin distance. I changed the surface to 4000 PG Polished and it helped a little but not enough. I am considering a re-drill. Before I stated that my tilt was about 10*. After doing some more measurements I find it closer to 7*. So My official stats are:

PAP: 4.5 > .5 ^
axis tilt: 7*
speed: 17 mph
rev rate: 300
Rotation: 30* - 60*
span: 4 1/6m 4 1/8r

I wanted to use it on longer patterns or High volume paterns with an aggresive backend. I generated a 70 x 3.5 x 35 but that would put thumb verry near the PSA and I don't feel comfortable with that. I would like some more advise from profesionals before go any further


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:58 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 98
I decided to go down to the lanes and throw the Cruel with tape on the pap. I'm guessing the ball went about 30 to 35 feet before the axis migrated. I compared it to a tropical heat I own drilled 60 x 3.75 x 20 1500 polished and the axis migrated much sooner. It makes me believe the cruel is'nt transitioning enough in the mids to have enough power in the back. I can try taking the surface back down to 2000 and try again but I think run into my previous problem of loosing to much tilt. The only other solution I can think of besides a redrill would be 4000 with a P3 hole. Would still appreciate some feedback


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 Post subject: Re: cruel LE layout help, student of dual angle
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 804
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
I would try moving the weight hole first, to a P3. then try it. You can always fiddle with the surface, but maybe consider 1k abralon as a base, and a light coat of PGP polish on top. Texture with a bit of glide.

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