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 Post subject: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 799
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
Well, this post is either going to flame me, or spark a nice discussion. Whichever, it is something I want to get off of my chest.

Does anyone remember when urethane was king, folks talking about "2 o'clock" pin positions, or the "4:30 drilling" or stuff like that?
I always wondered how the ball knew what to do with an absolute pin position; everyone's track and PAP were different, but I was made to believe that a 4:30 pin would be early and smooth.
My eyes never believed it, but the brain was sold.

RICO has been around for a bit now, since 2008 according to the article on bowlingknowledge.info. (check it out here: http://bowlingknowledge.info/index.php? ... &Itemid=47 )
If you fix the drill angle for a ball at 45*, you will, by definition, create a variable VAL angle from customer to customer. In addition, when dealing with a symmetric core, the initial drill angle is irrelevant, anyway. Another variable, not defined by the "layout guide" is the Pin to PAP distance.

This drilling setup is somewhat of a sham. It will be an early rolling layout for asymmetrical balls, but really, there is no magic "pin in the palm" layout without hard numbers (coordinates, VAL angle values, pin to pap distances, etc.)

Want an early rolling, smooth ball? Grab an asymmetric ball, draw a 45* angle. Decide how much forward roll you want (longer pin to pap distances), or if you want to retain tilt longer (shorter pin to pap distances, ie. 4" or less). Pay attention to the VAL angle-- make it 60 to 80*. There. A full recipe for an early rolling, smooth reaction for speed dominant or rev challenged players who need something to start up on longer or flatter patterns.

Let's quit talking about RICO like it's a one-size-fits-all layout, where all you need is a 45* drill angle, and the pin in the center of the palm.

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that someone out there has had a ball laid out like that, and it was a dud, while his buddy's ball, laid out the same way, was a monster. Now you know why.

Thanks to JustinWi for putting up enough information for me to finally wrap my head around this.

Now-
Flame or discussion. Am I full of shist or what are your observations?

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:48 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 113
I have drilled a few Rico layouts for myself and for a few others bowlers all are happy with the balls reactions on THS. So for me the jury is out on this one. I am a high speed low rev guy and I have a Track 300C a PinK Panther and a Tabo all with Rico drills on them and they are players for me. I have 2 slow speed cranker that each one has one ball drilled Rico and they like them. The rest of my stuff is duel angle with a wiki fit that I am about to try Mo's performance fit on to increase my revs. To rico or not to rico that is the question. My Motiv balls are drilled with Justins help and I have no desire to drill one of these balls Rico. I believe that with different cores and shells each ball has a different look and ajusting the layout to get the look from each ball that works for each person is the better way to go.

_________________
speed dom 18 at pin deck
rev 180-210
tilt 13
ro 40-50
PAP 4 1/2 X 1 1/2 Up
sweet spot
45/3.25/30 asym
50/3.25/25 sym

Rap Attack 60/4/40
Sig tour 45/3.25/25 obf
Primal t4 55/ 4.75/45
Rap 55/3/25 + p3
Primal Im 45x 3.375 x 40 wi hole
Thrash 50x4.25x35


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 799
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
I'm not questioning the performance of any ball, but if you were to use the dual angle method to map you Rico balls, and did the same for the guys you know who also have Rico balls, I'd be willing to bet that the numbers aren't the same at all, and most likely a wide enough variance so as to prove my point.

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:08 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 113
Rico should not drive you so nuts but the guys that write that they have their guy drill their ball pin under or over my ring cg kicked out to the rt or left 1 inch or more and a balance hole . then they write a review that means nothing because they hate this ball

that should drive u nuts !!

_________________
speed dom 18 at pin deck
rev 180-210
tilt 13
ro 40-50
PAP 4 1/2 X 1 1/2 Up
sweet spot
45/3.25/30 asym
50/3.25/25 sym

Rap Attack 60/4/40
Sig tour 45/3.25/25 obf
Primal t4 55/ 4.75/45
Rap 55/3/25 + p3
Primal Im 45x 3.375 x 40 wi hole
Thrash 50x4.25x35


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:27 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 799
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
I will certainly agree with that, too! Same principle applies. People want to boil concepts down so much and apply them so broadly. What ever happened to American scholarship? When did it become cool to be ignorant, and not cool to know your stuff?

Probably about the time yelling "Nerd!" became funny in the movies. I thought that maybe the only good thing to come out of the 9/11 tragedy was the death of snarkiness and cynicism, but they seem to be making a comeback.

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:58 pm
Posts: 399
Location: Countdown County FLA
mick, i have a friend who thinks rico layouts are "money" as we call it. i had one drilled that way and it was as good as a plastic ball. couldnt even get it to wiggle. unfortunately i am one of those pin here, cg there bowlers because i dont have a shop who does the dual angles. so i have Justin help me with layouts, he takes a picture of the layout on a blank drill drawn up and i drill it as i see it in the picture he sends....cant better yourself if you dont have the tools to do so =/

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Jason Drouin
"StickZ"
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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 113
because the BTM drills one layout for the all the balls they test it looks to mr. joe average that the same layout will work on any and all balls.

_________________
speed dom 18 at pin deck
rev 180-210
tilt 13
ro 40-50
PAP 4 1/2 X 1 1/2 Up
sweet spot
45/3.25/30 asym
50/3.25/25 sym

Rap Attack 60/4/40
Sig tour 45/3.25/25 obf
Primal t4 55/ 4.75/45
Rap 55/3/25 + p3
Primal Im 45x 3.375 x 40 wi hole
Thrash 50x4.25x35


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:27 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:23 pm
Posts: 120
"Rico's are vague depending on PAPs, but my suggestion is 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4 hole for symmetricals. I wouldn't do it on an asym. because regular "Dual Angle" layouts are so precise and accurate for asyms." - Mo Pinel

"A small drilling angle combined with a less flaring pin and a VAL angle that placed the pin just above the fingers is how I get Rico reaction with more hit and no chance of flaring over a hole." - Mo Pinel


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 799
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
Thanks efrain.

Count on Mo to distill it down to the exact essence.

Folks, these are the numbers to remember when you want an early rolling, smooth arc-y ball for flat or heavy patterns.

Thanks to all who have weighed in.

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Rico Rant (as promised)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
The RICO layout was first used at the Mini Eliminator for rev dominant players to combat the high amount of friction. The layout has a different measurement for every player so the results are unpredictable. With a VAL angle often in excess of 90* the second transition often doesn't happen, making the ball never hit the roll phase and therefore not reaching a point of maximum carry. Because of my rev dominance I could potentially make use of the layout on friction, but it is very condition specific. I tried it on a QZ2 and couldn't carry the 7 pin 85% of the time.


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