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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:55 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
Justin ;)


Any time you drill a hole and move the PSA you also move the low RG and Intermediate RG axes. Traditionally, the gradient line will result in a P3 position that is closer to the midline. This will drag the PSA up and to the right of the thumb. The collateral damage is adjustment of the low RG upwards as well, creating a smaller drilled VAL angle that can create a quicker transition that can lead to less continuation. You can't move one axis without impacting the others. Instead of a P3 hole as defined by the gradient line, I would place the hole halfway between the PSA and VAL and between 2 and 2.5" below the midline. After spinning the PSA should end up closer to the balance hole and afford you the stronger more continuous motion on the backend. This placement will also maintain or slightly increase the VAL angle you currently have as well as tweaking the mass properties a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 804
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
Well explained, Justin. I was able to visualize your adjustment in my head without too much confusion. This is some pretty technical stuff.

That makes more sense than a P3 hole for his situation, too. I shall remember this for future situations that I may foresee as well!

Thanks!

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Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:48 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:55 am
Posts: 85
Location: Madison, WI
Pics after adding x hole with new sums. 57*x5"x40* PSA marker can be seen moving right and slightly up. x hole 49/64" dia. 3" deep. Pro drilling done by Rob Bailey http://www.robbaileysproshop.com

I will report back on performance after I see some of the transitioned lane conditions that I am looking to attack with the PI.

Scott

BTW Justin sorry about name fubar. :mrgreen:


Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 804
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
Looking at the pics,
I am predicting a much earlier move on the back, without so much wiggle. I have a feeling that the "pin" moved, too, creating maybe a bit smaller drill angle, and a slightly larger val angle.

Should be a winner, tho'.

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:55 am
Posts: 85
Location: Madison, WI
Looking at the pics,
I am predicting a much earlier move on the back, without so much wiggle. I have a feeling that the "pin" moved, too, creating maybe a bit smaller drill angle, and a slightly larger val angle.

Should be a winner, tho'.


plamormick,

I listed the actual pin to PSA drilling angle it did become stronger by 18* from 75* to 57*. The x hole was placed at around P2 on the new gradient line and slightly below it slightly past my VAL line. I agree with your assessment. It will be interesting to see the difference in performance. I see this a lot in 5-man leagues where oil is pushed down by a league in front of us using poly and old urethane and other house conditions with poor length wise taper on house patterns where they apply to much oil at the end of the pattern. The PI should be able to be a good "fit" on that type of condition.


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
The Low RG axis will be 6.75" from the PSA, on a line drawn from the PAP to bowtie.


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:31 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 804
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
scotts33 wrote:
Looking at the pics,
I am predicting a much earlier move on the back, without so much wiggle. I have a feeling that the "pin" moved, too, creating maybe a bit smaller drill angle, and a slightly larger val angle.

Should be a winner, tho'.


plamormick,

I listed the actual pin to PSA drilling angle it did become stronger by 18* from 75* to 57*. The x hole was placed at around P2 on the new gradient line and slightly below it slightly past my VAL line. I agree with your assessment. .


What I'm getting at is that not only did the PSA move, but the low RG axis moved, too. I think what you will find is, after throwing it, if you measure the line from your PAP to the bow tie, that 6 3/4" line from the PSA will intersect the PAP/bow tie line actually in a different place that the pin indicates; I'm guessing that it will be farther away from your fingers, and possibly slightly more toward your center of grip line.

Think about the core; the pin indicates the top, and the CG a balance point. When you put holes into the core, you effectively make one side heavier compared to the side that has the holes, so the balance spot has to move, too. The Pin indicates the high RG axis of the core; a new shape with a different balance spot will also change this axis; just as you changed where the PSA was by adding the X hole.

Bottom line, I suppose, is that you will have an improved reaction in your PI. That's what we're hoping, anyway!

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:43 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Rochester NY
plamormick wrote:
The pin indicates the high RG axis of the core


The Major Pin marks the Low RG axis, minor pin/other markers indicate the High RG axis. The intermediate goes unmarked, except in a very few balls. The Hammer No Mercy series marked the intermediate RG Axis, and incessantly confused ball drillers.



plamormick wrote:
When you put holes into the core, you effectively make one side heavier compared to the side that has the holes, so the balance spot has to move, too.


Weight is a static measurement, and yes the CG will move with holes placed, but it has no impact on the resulting ball motion.


There are 2 factors at work once the ball has been drilled:

Tweaking the pin to spin line by moving the PSA.
Diff and intermediate diff adjustments with hole placements.

Both of these things happen when you drill a hole in a ball, but there are some variables to consider.

1. The more asymmetry innate to a ball(higher undrilled int diff) the less the PSA moves. This makes adjustments to diff and diff ratio using the gradient line the most effective way to change ball motion in asymmetrical balls.

2. With symmetrical balls, the PSA generally moves pretty easily and the diff ratios are generally quite a bit lower unless using tricks like double thumb or crazy thumb. This makes PSA modification the more useful tool in most cases. Hence my common recommendation of a hole 2" down the VAL on symmetrical balls. In situations like this, we can get the best of both worlds by placing the hole in between the PSA and VAL. You get some added diff and diff ratio for stronger dynamics, and earlier PAP precession acceleration.


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 804
Location: Iowa Falls, IA
Sorry, Justin, I mistyped. Thanks for catching that.

One of the caveats of trying to type a fairly technical thought while at work (and chatting with others at the same time.) ;| Oops.

_________________
Lane 13 Pro Shop, Iowa Falls, IA ............. Venom Shock * Recon
Proprietor, Pla-Mor Bowl ........................ GT1 * Covert Revolt.
Vise Grips Amateur Staff ......................... Sigma Sting * Tribal


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 Post subject: Re: Primal Impulse Layout
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:23 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:55 am
Posts: 85
Location: Madison, WI
JustinWi and plamormick do you both have DeTerminator's in your shops?

Scott


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