I have been looking into dual angle layouts and wondering if they really effect ball motion that much, I have been told that a ball with 30x3 3/8x30 will have a completely different reaction then a ball that is say 65X3 3/8x65. I've also talked with some of the local pro shop gurus to see their thoughts on the subject, one an ibpsia certified member swears by the dual angle, while another a kind of mentor to me says its more like static weights in a bowling ball. I personally can't wait for some assmetricals from motiv so i can test the dual angle for myself. I am still a big fan of abralon and the change that is inflicted by the sanding pads. Now i have guys coming into the proshop asking for dual angle and i have a pretty good understanding of how to lay it out, i just don't see the stock in it. Nothing against Mo Pinel, the man is a genius, but the dual angle confuses people and makes the proshop guy seem holier then holy. If i layout a ball for a guy and he shoots his first 300 and 800 great, but that feat is accomplished through him and him alone, like wise if he hates the ball and it doesn't work for him. Also look at the time it takes to layout a dual angle, we put up well over a $1,000 a week in our shop during the busy season. Time is money, and money is good bussiness. Not looking for a pissing match with anyone just suggestions on what to do and what are your thoughts on the subject.

What I have gathered from talking to other pro shops (I am not a drilling expert), is that the dual angle layouts are very easy to work with and quick to layout, once you've done several and the concept really sinks in. For shops that drill everyday using dual angles, saying you have a 30/70 layout makes perfect sense to them (not usually the bowler), and they know by watching the bowler if that layout is good for them with the ball they are using.

Hopefully, you'll get some responses from other pro shops here too that can shed more light on dual angle layouts for you.

It makes it very easy and quick to duplicate drillings from ball to ball actually. You can also fine tune ball motion.

Here is a link to Mo's Article at buddies pro shop

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/114/Mo_P ... hnique.htm

Kind of a long read, but you can get the idea of things from the first paragraph. Also the first part of each section will also tell you basically what the drill angle , pin to pap distance, and the val angle do..

Finally, the final section has a good general overview at the bottom.

Here is a section I copied and pasted from the article:

"If the two angles add up to 30º, the ball will transition as quickly as possible. If the two angles add up to 160º, the ball will transition the slowest. The ball driller should keep the sum of the two angles between 30º and 160º to create effective ball reactions while still allowing the ball to maintain hitting power. The ball driller must still keep the drilling angle between 10º and 90º and the angle to the VAL between 20º and approximately 70º (depending on the bowler’s track). Here are some guidelines for choosing the appropriate sum of the two angles to accommodate different factors:

· The ball driller should use smaller angles sums for speed dominant players and larger angle sums for rev dominant players. The ball driller should use medium angle sums for players whose ball speed and rev rate match.

· The ball driller should use smaller angle sums for higher axis tilt players and larger angle sums for lower tilt players.

· The ball driller should use smaller angle sums for longer oil patterns and larger angle sums for shorter patterns.

· The ball driller should use smaller angle sums for higher volumes of oil on the lane and larger angle sums for lower volumes of oil.

In conclusion, the sum of the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL controls how quickly the ball transitions from skid to hook to roll. Using a smaller sum of the two angles will turn translational energy into rotational energy faster.

Even though the sum of the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL controls the rate that the ball transitions from skid to hook to roll, the ball driller can control the shape of the breakpoint by changing the relationship between the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL. Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend). Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane)."

I have been using dual angles for quite some time now. I know your average joe bowler will get lost if you use the same language that Mo Pinel has written or taught in his class...(had the pleasure of being in a class with him). I agree that you can map a ball quickly from ball to ball and be the same each time with same layouts.

If you find the sweet spot for the bowler which matches pin to pap and total sum of angles you can change a balls look drastically. Example would be this if his sweet angle is let's say 100 to 120 on the sum of the angles and if 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 pin to pap has best reaction then for me I could drill one with 70 drill angle 4" pin to pap and a 30 val angle and get the ball long but snpaay in the back now if I went 40 x 4 x 60 then the ball reads earlier and is smoother through the back. I would read up on it but bascially this is how I tell my customers smaller the drill angle it will read the mids so longer reads later, val angle will determine how sharp or smooth the breakpoint is and pin to pap helps with the flare.

They seem to understand it that way then when I tell them the angles I am using and the jargen that comes along with it.

Hopefully this helps.

I use dual angles on symetrical and asymetrical balls.

ok question?

when laying a dual angle on a symetrical ball, what do you draw the other line to, to get the other angle. pin to pap and the val is one angle don't know how to find other.

No marked mass bias to get angle off pin to mass bias and pin to pap line?????????

Draw a line from the Pin, through the CG, 6 3/4" straight away.

Then the angle formed from that line and from the Pin to PAP is the Drill angle...

The second angle is from the pin to pap and the pap / vertical axis line.

You will end up with an N shape.. for the angles.

Here is a link to a photo on my facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... d=12101375

Don't know if you will be able to see it or not.