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 Post subject: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:56 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Massillon, OH
I know I made the Title up. But I wanted to discuss something that was bothering me for a while, until I started thinking about how it all worked. I'm sure all of you are well informed about layouts and what they all are suppose to do. Well I couldn't understand why my balls that had the pin above the bridge or above my middle finger always had such a strong break point, especially on longer patters such as shark. As well I didn't understand why a stacked leverage layout didn't have a strong break point like the drilling guides clam.

Let me give you a brief in site on my game. Keep in mind everything is variable (minimum to maximum) to what sort of hook is needed.

15-18 MPH speed
250-400 RPM
5-50 Degree rotation
Axis (benchmark) 5 x 1/4 down.

Ok so hear is the theory. A ball that has a RG of 2.48 and higher with a differential that is higher (say .045 and up), the layouts that put the pin 5 - 6 1/2 from my axis tend to have a super strong reaction when it hits friction on the longer oil patterns. I was first confused by this when I was striking like crazy using a Cherry Vibe with the pin above the bridge on the SHARK pattern nearly two years ago. When I first drilled a cherry vibe for my dad he was wanting a ball that would be for lighter oil. Well common wisdom would say that the pin above the bridge (5 1/2 from axis for him) with a higher RG ball and a pearl cover should do the trick. After all the ball is advertised as a light oil ball. Well he ended up with a strong back end ball that he used deeper inside (I took a shot to my pride as I scratched my head in confusion) So I drilled one 5 1/2 from my axis above the fingers and got a FLIP ball.

Several months ago I drilled a TX1 6 inches from my axis above my middle finger to use as a lighter oil ball with a strong but smooth reaction. That is what I got, but I noticed when I moved deeper inside (17 - 22 board at the arrows) the ball would recover stronger then my Tx1 with the stacked leverage drilling. Last night I was practicing on the Shark again and the 6 inch tx1 was loping through the first 40 feet then when it hit the end of the pattern at 44 feet the ball rolled over and gunned for the pocket like a drag car. It further reinforced my thinking.

When a ball with a higher Pin is used deep inside, and or on longer patterns the pin slowly migrates to the present axis point as it flares. When it hits the end of that longer pattern or from deeper inside the pin is now in a much stronger position in relation to the present axis point, possibly even in a leverage position. At that point the ball's core is in a lower RG state and the ball starts to rev up and turn the corner as it flares more dramatically in the last 15 feet, creating that strong flip. going Totally against the wisdom of length with less hook that all the drilling guides clam.

Let me know what you all think. Have you had an experience like this ? For me longer pins seem to dominate on the longer patterns, or from deep inside when I need that strong sharp preakpoint.

Good Luck and good bowling.

Michael
Massillon, Ohio

P.S. Thank you motiv for the wonderfull equipment It truly is a pleasure to throw motiv balls.

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RX1s 60x6x70
QZ2 1 inch pin to pap
Thrash 1 inch pin to pap
QZ2 BACKDRAFT 60x5x65
TZ3 70x5.5x30
Primal Impulse 90x3.5x55
Primal Impulse 75x5.5x40
Sigma Tour 80x5.5x40
Raptor Attack 95x5.25x30
Raptor P7 45x4.5x30 P1

More not listed!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:08 am
Posts: 14
Hey i can relate to your thought process,

Chances are you are a rev dominate player, you need the ball to get down the lane pin 4 1/4 off pap will do this, meaning you are one of the few people that can make a $100 bowling ball hook like a $230 bowling ball. what happens is the balls energy is stored for the back end. with a more agressive pin is the balls energy is wasted in the mids and rolls out on the back end.

I have the same problem, you mentioned red cherry vibe, great ball i had mine pin above ring finger my pap is 5 1/4 over 1/8 up
i was getting to much roll on the ball so i took some side weight out with a flare decreasing hole. it sat on the left side of my val just on the edge of my hand. I couldn't believe how much the flare tightened up on the ball. Went from like 3 1/2 inches to like 1 1/2 inches.


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:47 pm
Posts: 11
Hey Michael,

Just joined the forum last month, so a bit late as far as a response goes, however.......you are correct in your assessment. As a ball driller and pro shop owner operator up here in Canada, I have experimented with many layouts over the years, and the high pins above the fingers store the most energy as it takes much longer for the "pin" to migrate to your "PAP". Thus, the stored energy, less flare, and more dynamic back-end reaction.

What most don't understand is that the pin will ALWAYS migrate to your PAP as it's going down the lane. Once the pin IS your PAP, the ball will eventually hook or roll-out. That's also why a great control drilling is one which places the pin on your PAP or an inch or so away (pin-axis layout). This layout rolls very early and controls the entire lane for those tough PBA Experience and Sport patterns.

Hope that helps. Feel free to message me if you have any further questions.

George P.
PRO SHOP 300
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA

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George P.
PRO SHOP 300
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:16 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:01 pm
Posts: 533
I can relate to what you guys are saying regarding the pin migration to the pap as the ball goes down the lane. What I would like is your feedback on where do you place the cg (assuming symmetrical cores) and/or if using the dual angle layout system, what are your angle #'s? Do you keep the cg near the center of the grip so a weight hole will not be necessary or do you swing it out more needing a weight hole that will enhance the b/e reaction? Great info and appreciate your assistance.

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Bob "Mick" Michalojko
Colonial Lanes Pro Shop
PBA Member
Motiv Staff Member
Turbo Xtreme Dealear Member


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:14 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:08 am
Posts: 14
George-

ive had the pin on pap and found the ball to be very predictable on dry burn out lanes only you kill the roll through the heads and when the ball flips at the arrows you have to be lined up with the pocket at that point if you hit any carry down at all the ball will roll out with pin on pap. If you really want to kill ball reaction keep the cg positive or even, but place pin in the bowlers ball track this will create a great amount of length, but still have the back end that bowlers like to see. Also if you have a ball with mass bias i like to use a hook set layout with the mass bias at 135 degrees. this also produces a consistent yet predictacle move on the back end as is different with the pin on the pap idea which can at times make the ball reaction very unpredictable......by the way ever tried the boomer layout how does that work killing ball reaction...... ive seen it done a couple of times, but never tried it personally, sounds like the 10 and 1/8 layout for a full roller, which i still dont understand fully either???????????


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:47 pm
Posts: 11
evil858 wrote:
George-

ive had the pin on pap and found the ball to be very predictable on dry burn out lanes only you kill the roll through the heads and when the ball flips at the arrows you have to be lined up with the pocket at that point if you hit any carry down at all the ball will roll out with pin on pap. If you really want to kill ball reaction keep the cg positive or even, but place pin in the bowlers ball track this will create a great amount of length, but still have the back end that bowlers like to see. Also if you have a ball with mass bias i like to use a hook set layout with the mass bias at 135 degrees. this also produces a consistent yet predictacle move on the back end as is different with the pin on the pap idea which can at times make the ball reaction very unpredictable......by the way ever tried the boomer layout how does that work killing ball reaction...... ive seen it done a couple of times, but never tried it personally, sounds like the 10 and 1/8 layout for a full roller, which i still dont understand fully either???????????

I've heard people refer to the "boomer" layout but have neither seen it in person or tried it. Are you referring to the layout used by Rhino Page earlier this year on his Storm Natural? The layout was posted by Chris Schlemer on the Storm site! It's a pretty radical layout where the CG and balance hole are by the thumb on the positive side of the ball and the pin is about 4-6" below the thumb near the bottom of the ball! This is supposed to be another control layout for tougher patterns.

I don't like placing the pin on the bowler's track because it's not good for higher track players. They almost always catch the thumb and fingers holes. Pin on track layouts are typically only good for low track players.

For controlling ball reaction, I recommend pin axis (which has it's own issues - I agree with you there) and RICO. (where the pin is in the middle of your grip) RICO is really one of the better all-around layouts. No surprises, and pretty much controls the entire lane with a nice strong arc into the pocket.

_________________
George P.
PRO SHOP 300
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:01 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:08 am
Posts: 14
good point, ive seen the rico layout and the boomer layout both pretty exotic not a good layout for everyone, but some people love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Strong Pin at Break point theory
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:01 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 1
It has been explained to me that higher pin positions, especially combined with low angle totals on the dual angle technique, will create faster transitions, meaning the ball will react sooner upon leaving the oil. I also have a few stacked leverage balls that don't react nearly as strong as I would like them to. I get a fair amount of rotation on the ball, probably about 400 rpm at about 17-18 mph. PAP is about 5 1/4", 1/4-1/8" down (not sure of this, though it's close enough for argument's sake). I thought it was just me, as I hadn't used a stacked drilling for years, but I guess I'm not alone with this.
One thing that was mentioned above that I have to say I disagree with is that unless you are using a layout where the pin is already very close to the PAP, it will flare AWAY from the PAP, closer to the track. If I use a pin below the fingers, the thumbhole ends up on the axis as it's about to go through the pins. If it's next to or above the fingers, the PAP ends up within an inch or two of the thumbhole, causing a blur of grips and slugs.


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